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Old 07-15-2009, 01:38 PM
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Health Care Thread

New "national health care" bills were released today. Chances are, we'll have more than 24 hours to comment on them. Here are some initial comments; I've spent way too much time this morning reading about it. My general impression is that the theoretical level of discourse has improved, and people are actually debating the forest, rather than the trees.

I am not yet trying to advocate one position, but just figure out what the different D/R/I/whatever positions are, and if there's an "ideal" position that one would arrive at after studying the problem.

I spent some time scanning blogs this morning, and here are some links.

Original chart, comparing veterinary and human health care spending since 1984
Quote:
But second, the level of spending was very, very different: we spend hundreds of times more on ourselves than on our pets. The main reason for this is obvious: we value our own lives and those of our families more than we do our pets or other animals. At the same time, however, veterinary care is one of the few areas of health where we are directly confronted with difficult decisions regarding the costs and benefits of additional treatments. As the famed RAND health experiment showed, out-of-pocket costs can significantly affect the level of health spending without changing health outcomes.

This again highlights that the real issue with healthcare may not be the rate of growth but the level of health spending—and the fact that so much of it seems to be wasteful. This distinction is important because it shapes our policy priorities. The level of spending has different causes than the rate of growth of spending, among them our healthcare system’s structural incentives to overspend. Rather than attempting merely to temper cost growth, plans that remove incentives for overspending, improve consumer choice, or pay doctors based on quality rather than quantity of service could reduce the overall level of spending.


Veterinary spending vs. health care spending, per capita. This is based upon the above chart. I recommend reading Winship's entire post, as he clarifies some errors that appeared in the original (and subsequent) analyses.
Quote:
Anyway, when you look at the increase in spending per capita, health care spending per person rises by 350 percent, vet spending per dog rises by 335 percent, and vet spending per cat rises by 340 percent.. So on this one, I think the conservatives have the better argument, despite the flaws in the original evidence.
As I understand it, veterinary spending is out-of-pocket, and mostly not covered by insurance. So the claim that bureaucratic inefficiencies are responsible for the rise in (human) health care spending doesn't hold water. We are spending more on health care because spending more on it makes us feel better. The treatments that are developed for people are soon available for pets, and the rises in spending on those new, expensive treatments lines up shockingly well.

Glenn Reynolds gives some examples
Quote:
President Obama talks about the importance of prevention in a way that suggests that when people have heart attacks it's their own fault. But my wife, a longtime vegetarian and marathon runner, had a freak heart attack at the age of 37.

It wasn't from too many Big Macs. After some rough patches, she's now doing well, thanks to an obscure and expensive anti-arrhythmic drug called Tikosyn, and an implantable cardioverter/defibrillator. Not too long ago, she'd have been largely bedridden. These medical innovations made the difference between the life of a near-invalid and a life that's close to normal.

My mother had a hip replacement. Her hip didn't break - she basically wore it out with exercise. When the pain got too bad, she got it replaced, and now she's moving around like before, only painlessly. Not too long ago, she would have been chairbound.

My father had prostate cancer; his doctor suggested waiting but on biopsy it turned out to be pretty aggressive. It was treated with radioactive "seed" implants. He's now been cancer-free for several years, without the side effects of earlier treatments -- or, worse, of cancer.

My daughter had endoscopic sinus surgery this spring. She had been sickly and listless, complaining of constant migraine headaches, missing a lot of school, and generally looking more like a zombie than a teenager. Several doctors dismissed her problems, or prescribed antibiotics that didn't help much, until we found one who took the extra step.

A head CT scan done on a fancy new in-office machine showed a nasty festering infection, the surgeon cleaned it out, and now she's like a normal kid again. Before laparoscopy, her condition would probably have remained untreated, and she would have been another "sickly" kid. Better to be well.
I do not know enough about the proposed national health care plan to comment on Reynold's claims of how it will affect the market for new development of treatments. I hope to get to those by the end of the weekend; if I do, I'll post my summary here.

Megan McArdle comments on Reynolds' post
Quote:
Veterinary spending is rising just about in line with human medical spending. Kudoes to AEI for publishing a graph that seriously undercuts one of the major conservative arguments about health care: that the main problem is consumers who don't bear their own costs. Veterinary spending is subject to few of the perversities that either left or right suppose to be the main problems afflicting health care spending. Consumers pay full frieght most of the time. They are price sensitive, and will let the patient die if keeping him alive costs too much. There is no adverse selection. There is no free riding on mandatory care. Government regulation is minimal. Malpractice suits are minimal, and have low payouts. So why is vet spending rising along with human spending?

Two reasons, presumably: technological change and rising income. As we get wealthier, we spend more of our income on former luxuries, like keeping our pets healthy--nineteenth century veterinary care for sick cats consisted of a sack and some stones to weight it down with. And improvements in health care technology are giving us more things to spend that money on. With the help of my family, I bought my dog five extra years of life with an MRI that diagnosed his slipped disk; without it, we'd have had to put him to sleep when he was three. Worth it? I think so. But in 1950, I couldn't have afforded it, even if it had been available.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:45 PM
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The CBO has published a preliminary analysis of the Democrats' health care reforms. The fully analysis is here (click on "PDF").
Quote:
The tables included in the report summarize our preliminary assessment of the coverage provisions’ budgetary effects and their likely impact on rates and sources of insurance coverage for the nonelderly population. According to that assessment, enacting those provisions by themselves would result in a net increase in federal budget deficits of $1,042 billion over the 2010–2019 period. By 2019, CBO and the JCT staff estimate, the number of nonelderly people who are uninsured would be reduced by about 37 million, leaving about 17 million nonelderly residents uninsured (nearly half of whom would be unauthorized immigrants).
I haven't yet looked at the full analysis.
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
As I understand it, veterinary spending is out-of-pocket, and mostly not covered by insurance. So the claim that bureaucratic inefficiencies are responsible for the rise in (human) health care spending doesn't hold water. We are spending more on health care because spending more on it makes us feel better.

While health care spending may well be high because we want to spend that much (or because new technology we want to use is quite expensive; both reasonable conclusions which themselves are cause to question the calls for a socialized model), the comparison to veterinary care is apples to oranges. Pet and human populations don't necessarily grow at the same rate, so any chart that is not per capita is meaningless, especially given the manner in which many people replace children with pets. Declining birth rates, then, could very well indicate a corresponding increase in pet ownership (and thus care expenses).

Another problem is the presentation of this argument under the guise that one side (veterinary care) represents a market in health care. But in fact both share at least one particular form of government distortion: licensing. My cousin is a vet tech, and I can tell you that their schooling and professional requirements are close to as stringent as our own doctors. The schooling costs aren't quite as high, so they don't come out with the same level of debt, but it's still a significant barrier to entry that affects competition and thus pricing.

Finally, even if we accept the argument often presented with this chart, it does not prove that prices are not high because of government distortion. Rather, it shows that present increases in price are not explained by bureaucracy. That doesn't mean the entire line hasn't been shifted to the left because of various government interference, just that it doesn't explain the slope. In other words, technology or consumption or whatever might be driving the increases, but without government it could be increasing at the same rate, but from a much lower starting point.

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Old 07-15-2009, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
While health care spending may well be high because we want to spend that much (or because new technology we want to use is quite expensive; both reasonable conclusions which themselves are cause to question the calls for a socialized model), the comparison to veterinary care is apples to oranges. Pet and human populations don't necessarily grow at the same rate, so any chart that is not per capita is meaningless, especially given the manner in which many people replace children with pets. Declining birth rates, then, could very well indicate a corresponding increase in pet ownership (and thus care expenses).
Winship addressed the per-capita question in his post. From my OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Winship
Anyway, when you look at the increase in spending per capita, health care spending per person rises by 350 percent, vet spending per dog rises by 335 percent, and vet spending per cat rises by 340 percent.. So on this one, I think the conservatives have the better argument, despite the flaws in the original evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
Another problem is the presentation of this argument under the guise that one side (veterinary care) represents a market in health care. But in fact both share at least one particular form of government distortion: licensing. My cousin is a vet tech, and I can tell you that their schooling and professional requirements are close to as stringent as our own doctors. The schooling costs aren't quite as high, so they don't come out with the same level of debt, but it's still a significant barrier to entry that affects competition and thus pricing.
I'm not sure how close similarities between doctors for animals and people would make the comparison less apt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
Finally, even if we accept the argument often presented with this chart, it does not prove that prices are not high because of government distortion. Rather, it shows that present increases in price are not explained by bureaucracy. That doesn't mean the entire line hasn't been shifted to the left because of various government interference, just that it doesn't explain the slope. In other words, technology or consumption or whatever might be driving the increases, but without government it could be increasing at the same rate, but from a much lower starting point.
Sure, but is that more than your own speculation?
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:44 PM
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how is the government basically taking over health care insurance any kind of "reform"

who actually trusts these people to perform with any modicum of efficency? we can't fire teachers who diddle little kids in the classrooms, how are we going to shitcan bad nurses or doctors?

health care has lots of reasons for why costs are high, one I have yet to see the press touch on is the rampant costs of malpractice insurance for most health care providers. some doctor I know pay upwards of 200k a year for insurance. and the primary reason for the skyrocketing costs is the rampant amount of fraudulent litigation against health care workers. are there legit cases of malpractice, you betcha, but there is also a large amount of pure fraud be it malpractice or medicare. I have not seen the media even begin to touch on the high legal costs associated with health care practices. Oh thats right, almost everyone at the White House is an attorney, wouldn't want to fuck over your tribe.
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:56 PM
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rampant costs of malpractice insurance for most health care providers.

Texas capped malpractice lawsuits via tort reform.

The bad news is that costs haven't gone down for the consumer. The upshot is that lots of doctors are setting up business here.

I don't mind limited malpractice if only there is a national register for malpractice and complaints (versus moving a state over and setting up shop there). I'd like to see something that details the body of work a doctor has done, reviews from consumers, and success/failures.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
Winship addressed the per-capita question in his post. From my OP:

Then why did you completely ignore it in reaching this conclusion?
Quote:
So the claim that bureaucratic inefficiencies are responsible for the rise in (human) health care spending doesn't hold water.
Quote:
I'm not sure how close similarities between doctors for animals and people would make the comparison less apt.

Huh? If they are exactly the same than the price tracking similarity is meaningless. The strength of the chart is the implication that the level of government in each system is different, therefore leading to the conclusion, which you echoed, that some other factor than government is responsible for the increases. Showing a way in which government is consistent between the two, then, invalidates that conclusion.

Of course, an excellent counter-example is Lasik eye surgery. Because 1) it's not mandated to be covered by health insurance and, 2) therefore payed for out of pocket and, perhaps most importantly, 3) subject to competitive pressure, its prices have continued to go down over time, bucking the overall trend.
Quote:
Sure, but is that more than your own speculation?

It doesn't matter whether it's speculation or not, I was simply showing what you cannot conclude based on the data. You're a scientist (kinda), so I would have thought you'd understand the importance of not drawing conclusions when other possibilities are logically consistent with the data as well.

But yes, it is more than just speculation. However, my objective was not to prove any particular explanation, but to ensure the data was being interpreted correctly.

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Old 07-15-2009, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
Then why did you completely ignore it in reaching this conclusion?
I did not. If the health insurance industry were responsible for rising costs, then costs of pet care would have risen at a slower rate than the costs of human health care. This is because pet care costs are out-of-pocket, as opposed to health care costs, which are (usually) met through health insurance. I did not ignore his points; to the contrary, unless I am grossly misreading it, that IS his point. The (liberal/leftist) claim that insurance companies are to blame for rising costs is fairly well countered by the (equal) rise in spending on health care for dogs and cats.

Quote:
Huh? If they are exactly the same than the price tracking similarity is meaningless. The strength of the chart is the implication that the level of government in each system is different, therefore leading to the conclusion, which you echoed, that some other factor than government is responsible for the increases. Showing a way in which government is consistent between the two, then, invalidates that conclusion.
Where did government come from? The chart is for all health care expenses, I assume both private AND public. You injected government into this; I did not. The health insurance bureaucracy exists well and truly on its own outside of government. It is the private health insurance industry which differs between the two markets.
Quote:
Of course, an excellent counter-example is Lasik eye surgery. Because 1) it's not mandated to be covered by health insurance and, 2) therefore payed for out of pocket and, perhaps most importantly, 3) subject to competitive pressure, its prices have continued to go down over time, bucking the overall trend.
Most technologies, including medication and medical treatments, will decrease in cost over time. I am not sure we are discussing the same thing.
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:40 PM
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Where did government come from? The chart is for all health care expenses, I assume both private AND public. You injected government into this; I did not. The health insurance bureaucracy exists well and truly on its own outside of government. It is the private health insurance industry which differs between the two markets.
Government is the primary source of bureaucracy in the market (much of the insurance bureaucracy is itself just a response to legal mandates). For this discussion I think they can be used interchangebly. But in either case, my point was simply to make sure hasty conclusions were not drawn from the data by exploring what arguments it may and may not be used to substantiate. Inefficiency is not a great explanation for rising costs, but it can still be quite influential in determining the absolute cost.
Quote:
I am not sure we are discussing the same thing.
Apparently not.

To get back to the issue of spending, another point sometimes made is that, while spending is increasing as as a % of GDP, it's still logically explained by personal consumption. Basically, our fixed costs (mortgages, bills, etc.) are higher as a percentage of income when at a lower income, but as more disposable income is gained, we choose to spend a growing share of it on health care compared to other optional purchases (and, yes, health care often qualifies as optional, even for life threatening illnesses, in which case the option is still in the course of treatment and how long to continue, etc). Put another way (and don't read anything into the numbers themselves), at 50k a year I might spend 5k (10%) on health care, but at 150k I might be willing to spend 25k (17%). Of course, it's hard to guess exactly how much total consumption is affected by third-party-payers.

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Old 07-15-2009, 08:44 PM
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this government health care reform bill is nothing but a power grab. which is a shame as i'd like to see true reform.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:24 PM
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Choice!
Quote:
When we first saw the paragraph Tuesday, just after the 1,018-page document was released, we thought we surely must be misreading it. So we sought help from the House Ways and Means Committee.

It turns out we were right: The provision would indeed outlaw individual private coverage. Under the Orwellian header of "Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage," the "Limitation On New Enrollment" section of the bill clearly states:

"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law.

So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.

But all they want is to compete!
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst

Apparently not.

Kudos for fixing your mistakes and keeping the topic an open discussion void of partisanship bullshit.
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Originally Posted by Grst

But all they want is to compete!

Ah shit..spoke too soon.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:46 PM
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Ah shit..spoke too soon.
Explain to me how the content of massive health care bill advancing through Congress isn't appropriate for a thread titled "Health Care Thread."

You know what, don't. Kudos for contributing nothing, as usual. I'll simply point to my sig and go back to ignoring your childishness.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:52 PM
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no one, even centrist dems, support a public option to compete with mainstream healthcare. fucking waxman.
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fury211
no one, even centrist dems, support a public option to compete with mainstream healthcare. fucking waxman.
Voters strongly support it.
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
That's because generic polls ask an impossible question, i.e. a scenario where government is just one of many options. That will never happen, because rule making bodies do not compete fairly.

When asked about the actual implementation of the idea, voters are much less impressed.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:26 AM
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I found this article interesting. I am not sure that Peter Singer is a controversy-free figure, but I did not find anything grossly objectionable in the article.

It's long (5 pages); here are a few excerpts.
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Health care is a scarce resource, and all scarce resources are rationed in one way or another. In the United States, most health care is privately financed, and so most rationing is by price: you get what you, or your employer, can afford to insure you for. But our current system of employer-financed health insurance exists only because the federal government encouraged it by making the premiums tax deductible. That is, in effect, a more than $200 billion government subsidy for health care. In the public sector, primarily Medicare, Medicaid and hospital emergency rooms, health care is rationed by long waits, high patient copayment requirements, low payments to doctors that discourage some from serving public patients and limits on payments to hospitals. ...

There’s no doubt that it’s tough — politically, emotionally and ethically — to make a decision that means that someone will die sooner than they would have if the decision had gone the other way. But if the stories of Bruce Hardy and Jack Rosser lead us to think badly of the British system of rationing health care, we should remind ourselves that the U.S. system also results in people going without life-saving treatment — it just does so less visibly. Pharmaceutical manufacturers often charge much more for drugs in the United States than they charge for the same drugs in Britain, where they know that a higher price would put the drug outside the cost-effectiveness limits set by NICE. American patients, even if they are covered by Medicare or Medicaid, often cannot afford the copayments for drugs. That’s rationing too, by ability to pay. ...

But we tend not to hear about — and thus don’t identify with — the particular individuals who die in emergency rooms because they have no health insurance. This “identifiable victim” effect, well documented by psychologists, creates a dangerous bias in our thinking. Doyle’s figures suggest that if those Wisconsin accident victims without health insurance had received equivalent care to those with it, the additional health care would have cost about $220,000 for each life saved. Those who died were on average around 30 years old and could have been expected to live for at least another 40 years; this means that had they survived their accidents, the cost per extra year of life would have been no more than $5,500 — a small fraction of the $49,000 that NICE recommends the British National Health Service should be ready to pay to give a patient an extra year of life. If the U.S. system spent less on expensive treatments for those who, with or without the drugs, have at most a few months to live, it would be better able to save the lives of more people who, if they get the treatment they need, might live for several decades. ...

If the Department of Transportation, for example, followed rabbinical teachings it would exhaust its entire budget on road safety. Fortunately the department sets a limit on how much it is willing to pay to save one human life. In 2008 that limit was $5.8 million. Other government agencies do the same. Last year the Consumer Product Safety Commission considered a proposal to make mattresses less likely to catch fire. Information from the industry suggested that the new standard would cost $343 million to implement, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission calculated that it would save 270 lives a year — and since it valued a human life at around $5 million, that made the new standard a good value. If we are going to have consumer-safety regulation at all, we need some idea of how much safety is worth buying. Like health care bureaucrats, consumer-safety bureaucrats sometimes decide that saving a human life is not worth the expense. Twenty years ago, the National Research Council, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, examined a proposal for installing seat belts in all school buses. It estimated that doing so would save, on average, one life per year, at a cost of $40 million. After that, support for the proposal faded away. So why is it that those who accept that we put a price on life when it comes to consumer safety refuse to accept it when it comes to health care? ...

... Nevertheless this approach to setting a value on a human life is at least closer to what we really believe — and to what we should believe — than dramatic pronouncements about the infinite value of every human life, or the suggestion that we cannot distinguish between the value of a single human life and the value of a million human lives, or even of the rest of the world. Though such feel-good claims may have some symbolic value in particular circumstances, to take them seriously and apply them — for instance, by leaving it to chance whether we save one life or a billion — would be deeply unethical. ...



As a first take, we might say that the good achieved by health care is the number of lives saved. But that is too crude. The death of a teenager is a greater tragedy than the death of an 85-year-old, and this should be reflected in our priorities. We can accommodate that difference by calculating the number of life-years saved, rather than simply the number of lives saved. If a teenager can be expected to live another 70 years, saving her life counts as a gain of 70 life-years, whereas if a person of 85 can be expected to live another 5 years, then saving the 85-year-old will count as a gain of only 5 life-years. That suggests that saving one teenager is equivalent to saving 14 85-year-olds. These are, of course, generic teenagers and generic 85-year-olds. It’s easy to say, “What if the teenager is a violent criminal and the 85-year-old is still working productively?” But just as emergency rooms should leave criminal justice to the courts and treat assailants and victims alike, so decisions about the allocation of health care resources should be kept separate from judgments about the moral character or social value of individuals.

Health care does more than save lives: it also reduces pain and suffering. How can we compare saving a person’s life with, say, making it possible for someone who was confined to bed to return to an active life? We can elicit people’s values on that too. One common method is to describe medical conditions to people — let’s say being a quadriplegic — and tell them that they can choose between 10 years in that condition or some smaller number of years without it. If most would prefer, say, 10 years as a quadriplegic to 4 years of nondisabled life, but would choose 6 years of nondisabled life over 10 with quadriplegia, but have difficulty deciding between 5 years of nondisabled life or 10 years with quadriplegia, then they are, in effect, assessing life with quadriplegia as half as good as nondisabled life. (These are hypothetical figures, chosen to keep the math simple, and not based on any actual surveys.) If that judgment represents a rough average across the population, we might conclude that restoring to nondisabled life two people who would otherwise be quadriplegics is equivalent in value to saving the life of one person, provided the life expectancies of all involved are similar.

This is the basis of the quality-adjusted life-year, or QALY, a unit designed to enable us to compare the benefits achieved by different forms of health care. The QALY has been used by economists working in health care for more than 30 years to compare the cost-effectiveness of a wide variety of medical procedures and, in some countries, as part of the process of deciding which medical treatments will be paid for with public money. If a reformed U.S. health care system explicitly accepted rationing, as I have argued it should, QALYs could play a similar role in the U.S.
I had not seen the concept of QALY formally defined before.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Panamon777
Hmm nothing wrong with that CBS poll is there:
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Total Republicans 284 211 (24%)
Total Democrats 301 339 (38%)
Total Independents 310 345 (38%)
Also of interest, in that poll. The number 50 million Americans is bandied about an awful lot (with zero confirmation I would add) in regards to American's who don't have health coverage. That would mean that roughly 17% of the US population doesn't have health coverage. But according to that CBS poll, out of 895 respondents, 821 had health coverage resulting in just 9%. Why the disparity?
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Old 07-16-2009, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by FaaQ
Hmm nothing wrong with that CBS poll is there:

Not grossly so, no.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx



Quote:
Also of interest, in that poll. The number 50 million Americans is bandied about an awful lot (with zero confirmation I would add) in regards to American's who don't have health coverage. That would mean that roughly 17% of the US population doesn't have health coverage. But according to that CBS poll, out of 895 respondents, 821 had health coverage resulting in just 9%. Why the disparity?
Why don't you read the polling report and get back to us about it, if it concerns you.


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Originally Posted by Grst
That's because generic polls ask an impossible question, i.e. a scenario where government is just one of many options. That will never happen, because rule making bodies do not compete fairly.

When asked about the actual implementation of the idea, voters are much less impressed.
I am also highly unimpressed with the anti-market language introduced in the bill, although I have not (and will not) be reading the whole thing, and I suspect it's not nearly as bad as that site makes it out to be.
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:35 PM
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so an 11 point difference doesn't bother you? Oversampled Democrats, undersampled Republicans.


oh and Doh! CBO Sees No Federal Cost Savings in Dem Health Plans
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Here's a blow to President Obama and Democrats pressing health care reform.

One of the main arguments made by the President and others for investing in health reform now is that it will save the federal government money in the long run by containing costs.

Turns out that may not be the case, according to Doug Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

Answering questions from Democrat Kent Conrad of North Dakota at a hearing of the Senate Budget Committee today, Elmendorf said CBO does not see health care cost savings in either of the partisan Democratic bills currently in Congress.

Conrad: Dr. Elmendorf, I am going to really put you on the spot because we are in the middle of this health care debate, but it is critically important that we get this right. Everyone has said, virtually everyone, that bending the cost curve over time is critically important and one of the key goals of this entire effort. From what you have seen from the products of the committees that have reported, do you see a successful effort being mounted to bend the long-term cost curve?

Elmendorf: No, Mr. Chairman. In the legislation that has been reported we do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount. And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs.
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Panamon777

Why don't you read the polling report and get back to us about it, if it concerns you.
The point is the 50 million figure is proven bullshit.
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I found this article interesting. I am not sure that Peter Singer is a controversy-free figure, but I did not find anything grossly objectionable in the article.

I find the entire idea of politicians rationing care by placing different values on people's lives to be objectionable. I don't object to the acknowledgment of such value, per se, but it's problematic when government does it. The whole thing strikes me as a recipe for utilitarian dystopia.

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Old 07-16-2009, 02:05 PM
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:26 AM
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full poll is here: http://www.zogby.com/news/x-healthcarereform.pdf

As I noted with the CBS poll, the number of respondents that claimed no health care in this survey was 299 out 3842, or roughly 7.7%. Nowhere in line with the 50 million number that is constantly thrown around by an uninterested media who appear to just regurgitate everything that the White house and Congress tell them without making an attempt to verify it.
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
Choice!

But all they want is to compete!

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsi...od-to-know.html
Quote:
That sounds scary! It also sounds completely implausible. So I went and looked at the actual bill, and there that paragraph was, on p. 16, in a section defining the term "Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage". The fact that it's in a definition might lead readers to conclude that it doesn't mean that you can't buy individual insurance after the bill takes effect, but only that you can't buy such insurance and have it meet the bill's definition of "Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage". There is a difference.

"Grandfathered Health Insurance" is mentioned in Sec. 102, Sec. 202, and Sec. 401. Unless my search engine has melted down, these are the only mentions of "Grandfathered Health Insurance" in the bill. None of them even comes close to banning private individual insurance. Check for yourselves.

Here are some bloggers who repeated IBD's claims: Instapundit (he updated after a reader pointed out his mistake), Meredith Jessup at Townhall, No Sheeples Here! (sic), Patterico, Gateway Pundit, theblogprof (sic), Ed Morrissey (he updates with a correction, but completely doesn't get why pooling individuals in an exchange lowers premiums. Hint: large risk pool), Say Anything, Michelle Malkin, Jules Crittenden, Right Wing News, Maggie's Farm, The Astute Bloggers (sic).

Since those claims are so obviously false to anyone who reads the actual bill, or even skims the relevant sections, I conclude that these bloggers did not bother to check them out before they posted. Which is to say: they didn't bother to do the most basic, rudimentary research that any blogger ought to do.

Tom Maguire, on the other hand, did, and spotted the mistake. Kudos.
From Maguire's site...
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I am not reading the bill (1000+ page .pdf, or 4 page summary) the same way. The relevant section on page 16 describes the treatment of currently operating plans that will be grandfathered under the new legislation (Key hint - the section is titled "Grandfathered Health Insurnce Coverage Defined). Rather than tear up all existing health insurance contracts, such grandfathered plans will generally be allowed to operate with their current customers until death (or other circumstances) do them part.

However, all new qualified privately offered plans must meet certain guidelines to which a grandfathered plan will not be subject; for example, a new private plan may not exclude applicants on the basis of pre-existing conditions,although a grandfathered plan may be doing just that.

Hence, the impact of the provision cited by IDB will not be to make all private insurance illegal; it will be to make sure that all newly offered private insurance complies with the new guidelines. It may be the case that the new guidelines are so onerous that private plans can not see their way to a rational business strategy, but that is a different point than the one being made by IDB.
Maguire goes on to point out that new plans must meet guidelines (regulations) set forth by the government. A lobbyist for the gov't plan that I spoke to agreed that that was the case.

I'd advocate holding off on judgment until those with the time to do so have read and reported on the entire thing.
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaaQ
full poll is here: http://www.zogby.com/news/x-healthcarereform.pdf

As I noted with the CBS poll, the number of respondents that claimed no health care in this survey was 299 out 3842, or roughly 7.7%. Nowhere in line with the 50 million number that is constantly thrown around by an uninterested media who appear to just regurgitate everything that the White house and Congress tell them without making an attempt to verify it.
That 7.7% is 23 million, and I'm not entirely sure that people w/o health insurance are as apt to respond to a survey about health insurance as people w/health insurance.
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:46 AM
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I had read about the grandfathered thing as well so I did not put a whole lot of stock in the complaint.

That said, read Mickey Kaus and his take on Obama's media blitz. It's long so I wont post any portions of it but its worth a read.

As for the un-insured, if you exclude illegal aliens that 23 million number is probably closer to 12 million. How many of those people are young people who just refuse to pay for health insurance? I can't read peoples minds so I won't pretend to vouch for their accuracy on a poll. But the two polls together show a trend that is far lower than the number claimed by the Obama admin and its media allies.

From what I can see, there is no move to cut costs, or make health care affordable or efficient. All I see so far is a consolidation of even more power in the hands of the government.
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:56 AM
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They're positioning themselves as obviously anti-freedom, if anybody in the media cared enough to point it out.

Or am I the only one who still thinks primarily in those terms?
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nater
They're positioning themselves as obviously anti-freedom, if anybody in the media cared enough to point it out.
Anti-freedom is, imo, a bit strong of a term for it. Depending on the details of this "exchange," it may or may not be anti-free-market.

If they were to set up the exchange such that you no longer had state rules and regulations for health insurance, no longer had to get it through your employer, and could find whatever plan(s) you wanted (say, one high-deductible, low-premium plan for catastrophic injuries, and one higher-premium, low-copay plan for routine stuff that maxed out payments at $1k or something), then it might not be a bad thing.

Or it could do none of those things and suck.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
Maguire goes on to point out that new plans must meet guidelines (regulations) set forth by the government. A lobbyist for the gov't plan that I spoke to agreed that that was the case.
This is, unfortunately, only slightly better than originally reported (Edit: I shouldn't assume it goes without saying, so thanks for the corrective info). All they have to do is meet some conveniently set government "guidelines." We can count on government to set guidelines that are in the consumers, and not just their own, best interest, right? And I'm sure they would never set the rules in such a way as to make compliance unprofitable, leaving only the taxpayer subsidized government plan capable of staying afloat.

Normally I love nothing more than to read the legislation itself. But the problem with waiting for someone to read all 1,000 pages of the bill (or do it myself) before talking about it is that, by that time, they'll have passed it already. Which is no coincidence. That's how this Congress operates.
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Anti-freedom is, imo, a bit strong of a term for it. Depending on the details of this "exchange," it may or may not be anti-free-market.
For those of us who believe that economic freedom is just an extension of personal liberty, that's a distinction without a difference. Anything that reduces the ability of two people to enter a voluntary contract of exchange is not just impacting some abstract free market, it's reducing their particular freedoms.

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Old 07-17-2009, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
Anti-freedom is, imo, a bit strong of a term for it. Depending on the details of this "exchange," it may or may not be anti-free-market.

If they were to set up the exchange such that you no longer had state rules and regulations for health insurance, no longer had to get it through your employer, and could find whatever plan(s) you wanted (say, one high-deductible, low-premium plan for catastrophic injuries, and one higher-premium, low-copay plan for routine stuff that maxed out payments at $1k or something), then it might not be a bad thing.

Or it could do none of those things and suck.
They're removing your freedom of choice, your freedom of action, forcing you into health coverage (which amounts to forcing you to buy goods you don't want and *hopefully* don't need), and further limiting economic freedom.

And if it turns out as expected, with rationing of care they will require the expensive to care for elderly to give up their right to life.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
If they were to set up the exchange such that you no longer had state rules and regulations for health insurance, no longer had to get it through your employer, and could find whatever plan(s) you wanted (say, one high-deductible, low-premium plan for catastrophic injuries, and one higher-premium, low-copay plan for routine stuff that maxed out payments at $1k or something), then it might not be a bad thing.
I think you know very well that it's never going to do all of those things, which means it's going to suck somehow (this is government we're talking about after all). Second, I think you also know that any "exchange" is going to include "the public option," which, as I've explained previously, will invariably lead to the death of private insurers, i.e., there is no way for them to compete against the entity (government) that sets the rules, limits, and prices, does the regulating, and has a bottomless pocket.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:30 PM
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Rasmussen: 35% support Obama care
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Just 35% of U.S. voters now support the creation of a government health insurance company to compete with private health insurers.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 50% of voters oppose setting up a government health insurance company as President Obama and congressional Democrats are now proposing in their health care reform plan. Fifteen percent (15%) are undecided.

In mid-June, 41% of American adults thought setting up a government health insurance company to compete with private health insurance companies was a good idea, but the identical number (41%) disagreed.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:30 PM
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Obama:
Quote:
“I just want to put everybody on notice, because there was a lot of chatter during the week that I was gone: We are going to get this done,” the president said. “Inaction is not an option. And for those naysayers and cynics who think that this is not going to happen, don't bet against us.”
looks like another "I won" moment from the messiah.

as noted at Hotair:
Quote:
For my money, this is a moment of almost unparalleled Obama jackassery: As noted last night, the substance of the bill seems secondary to him to the pure political challenge of cramming this turd down America’s cakehole, no matter how many people are gagging on it
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:54 AM
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how about HAA?
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Old 07-18-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fury211
this government health care reform bill is nothing but a power grab. which is a shame as i'd like to see true reform.

Well said....

In my mind, Obama and Bush are similar in many ways.... (A similarity I know many other politicians also share), they both use fear to puch their agendas through. When Bush had 9/11, he used the fear of terrorists as the chance to go to war with Iraq, push through the Patriot act, etc. Obama, he is using our fear regarding the economy to push through his pet projects, the bullshit cap and trade, this so-called health reform, etc.

I also would like to see true healthcare reform, because it is needed, but do we trust another bullshit system operated by the most ineffecient entity in America (our government)? We need to look at the root problems and find a way to fix them (which might include some new regulations,etc) instead of government throwing money away and trying to take over an industry (which, over the past two presidencies is happening too fucking much).

Let's step back, what are the true problems with healthcare right now, and do we really need the government and the not-so-undercover brother to take it over, is this the only way to fix it? I'm thinking not.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:57 AM
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one of the real purposes of this "reform" is a gift to the trial lawyers
Quote:
For some time now the federal government has been intensifying its pursuit of what are sometimes known as “Medicare liens” against third party defendants (more). In the simplest scenario — not the only scenario, as we will see below — someone is injured in, say, a car accident, and has the resulting medical bills paid by Medicare. They then sue and successfully obtain damages from the other driver. At this point Medicare (i.e. the government) is free to demand that the beneficiary hand over some or all of the settlement to cover the cost of the health care, but under some conditions it is also free to file its own action to recover the medical outlays directly from the negligent driver (who in some circumstances might even wind up paying for the same medical bills twice). It might do this if, for example, it does not expect to get a collectible judgment from the beneficiary.

The newly added language in the Thursday morning version of the health bill (for those following along, it’s Section 1620 on pp. 713-721) would greatly expand the scope of these suits against third parties, while doing something entirely new: allow freelance lawyers to file them on behalf of the government — without asking permission — and collect rich bounties if they manage thereby to extract money from the defendants. Lawyers will recognize this as a qui tam procedure, of the sort that has led to a growing body of litigation filed by freelance bounty-hunters against universities, defense contractors and others alleged to have overcharged the government.

It gets worse. Language on p. 714 of the bill would permit the lawyers to file at least some sorts of Medicare recovery actions based on “any relevant evidence, including but not limited to relevant statistical or epidemiological evidence, or by other similarly reliable means”. This reads very much as if an attempt is being made to lay the groundwork for claims against new classes of defendants who might not be proved liable in an individual case but are responsible in a “statistical” sense. The best known such controversies are over whether suppliers of products such as alcohol, calorie-laden foods, or guns should be compelled to pay compensation for society-wide patterns of illness or injury.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:50 PM
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You dont need a pacemaker, just get hooked on painkillers.
Quote:
Jane Sturm told the story of her nearly 100-year-old mother, who was originally denied a pacemaker because of her age. She eventually got one, but only after seeking out another doctor.

“Outside the medical criteria,” Sturm asked, “is there a consideration that can be given for a certain spirit … and quality of life?”

“I don’t think that we can make judgments based on peoples’ spirit,” Obama said. … “Maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking painkillers.“
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:03 PM
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She's a 100 years old. No way she should be getting a pacemaker unless she pays out of pocket or the cost is less than pills for 5 years.

googled and the average cost of a pacemaker is $60k plus. Um, no.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:35 PM
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christ we shouldnt be paying to keep people alive at that age anyways but whatever
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Ahhhhh the "it doesn't hurt me, so fuck it" mentality. You would have gone far in the Nazi party.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go3
christ we shouldnt be paying to keep people alive at that age anyways but whatever
Well, those are decisions that people would be making, if you had government-run health care, a la Britain.
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