Bad Ass MoFo Forums - Health Care Thread

11-17-2009, 10:28 AM

Grst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

Tyler Cowen talks about health care reform. He mentions some good talking points but I do not think he gets to the core issues at all. I don't know if that's by choice (he limited his analysis to politically feasible options) or if what he posted is really his best solution.

I just read that a bit ago and was fairly disappointed. He does say these are not his first, or even second best solutions. As he put it, he's starting with the pieces already on the table and rearranging them. So he's basically staying within the current democratic-majority framework and trying to come up with something better, but that wouldn't stray from that framework.

I agree that he doesn't really get into the core issues, which is probably a commentary on the deficiency of the current framework as anything. Some of it even seemed surprisingly naive, such as when he calls for an "all-out attempt" to do this or that thing which hasn't happened in the past, despite knowing they need to be done, because of distorted incentive structures which he does not address. Those are wishful thinking, at best.

Quote:

I do not think either current party is able to offer a solution. Both seem intent on passing bills, when I think the best thing for the country is to not pass anything. (Or repeal things.)

There is indeed a definitive bias in government to "do something." To pass new legislation whether it's needed or not, or whether better approaches exist. As you say, it spans both parties.

Last edited by Grst : 11-17-2009 at 11:08 PM.

11-17-2009, 12:04 PM

nater

hitlerphonic

Join Date: May 2004

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Location: Wisconsin

An excellent writeup about the loss of freedoms built into the health care bill from a philosophical point of view.

http://minx.cc/?post=294673

Quote:

Furthermore, apart from the basic definitional aspect of socialism that requires a loss of freedom in exchange, supposedly, for economic security: Socialism has almost never worked as intended, but rather creates new problems and new poverties and new ways to exploit the system (black markets, for one); socialism therefore always requires even additional laws against once-unobjectionable and perfectly-legal behavior. In other words, not only does socialism require a small buy-in, in the form of loss of freedom, but it is always accompanied by unplanned-for (?) additional losses of freedom to "correct" for all the systematic irrationalities and distortions it creates.

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11-17-2009, 11:06 PM

Grst

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Irony:

Quote:

Senator Charles E. Grassley wrote to 10 top medical schools Tuesday to ask what they are doing about professors who put their names on ghostwritten articles in medical journals — and why that practice was any different from plagiarism by students.

11-18-2009, 09:33 AM

Panamon777

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I am amused that all of us are so exhausted about this issue that we don't even comment any more; we just post links and sigh.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roachgodd

Oddly enough I think the octopus pics are really hot.

11-18-2009, 10:17 AM

Brewboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

I am amused that all of us are so exhausted about this issue that we don't even comment any more; we just post links and sigh.

The sad fact is that we never had a chance. Just like those on the left who thought that protesting against an impending war in Iraq would do any good (and I called it back then), our government has a plan, they're sticking to it, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about it. We will have this health care shitbag clusterfuck foisted upon us, come hell or high water.

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11-18-2009, 12:08 PM

Guru

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brewboy

I dunno Brew. Public support still matters and affects legislation. In fact I think it's foolish to think Health Care reform is done deal at this point.

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11-18-2009, 12:55 PM

Panamon777

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can anyone confirm the "penalty" for those w/o health care? like, if you're uninsured, you have to pay the government for that privilege? forget where I saw that mentioned.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roachgodd

Oddly enough I think the octopus pics are really hot.

Last edited by Panamon777 : 11-18-2009 at 03:48 PM.

11-18-2009, 01:28 PM

Grst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

can anyone confirm the "penalty" for those w/o health care? like, if you're uninsured, you have to pay the government for that privelege? forget where I saw that mentioned.

That's the mandate part of the individual mandate. According to a letter from the Joint Committee on Taxation (pdf), the Pelosi bill requires that those who do not "maintain acceptable health insurance coverage" are subjected to an additional tax of the lesser of either a) the national average premium for single or family coverage or b) 2.5% of adjusted gross income beyond the threshold for which filing is required.

Both civil and criminal sanctions for not paying are possible (and are not mutually exclusive). The civil penalties include various fines, as either a percentage of the underpayment or fees up to $5,000 dollars, depending on what they can prove regarding intent.

Criminal penalties range up to 5 years in jail and $250,000 in fines.

But remember, this generous government expansion of "rights" is not at all a threat to your liberty. Anyone who says otherwise is a nutjob, racist teabagger.

Last edited by Grst : 11-18-2009 at 01:39 PM.

11-18-2009, 03:48 PM

Je(^)plar

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this is all just a huge clusterfuck waiting to happen. Yes, make healthcare entirely socialist in a market that is otherwise almost entirely capitalist (notice how your prescription drugs have spiked in price recently?). While you're at it, keep American med school seats and resident slots ridiculously scarce but continue to bitch when 50+% of your physicians are foreign trained. You could easily QUADRUPLE the numbers of both slots and you wouldn't make a DENT in the quality or competancy of physicians. Oh and hey, since you politicos are busy cocksucking your lawyer fratbuddies don't do a fucking thing about tort reform. It totally doesn't effect how healthcare is performed when the average surgeon is paying 150k a year in malpractice insurance (that's about 3 months of their work year, btw). Oh and iirc general surgeons are actually considered MIDRANGE for insurance premiums. God forbid you're an OBGYN or neurosurgeon.

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11-18-2009, 04:16 PM

Panamon777

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Grst

But remember, this generous government expansion of "rights" is not at all a threat to your liberty. Anyone who says otherwise is a nutjob, racist teabagger.

I do not understand the Democrats' motivation. What does this legislation accomplish? It seems to not reform health care, it raises (effective) taxes, and increases debt. One could argue that their intentions are good, and this bill is just what happens to all bills as they get watered down in committee. One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible. (Isn't this demonstrably false?) One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roachgodd

Oddly enough I think the octopus pics are really hot.

11-18-2009, 04:24 PM

Grst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible. (Isn't this demonstrably false?) One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.

Some combination of the above, I'd go with. I'm sure privately many would admit this bill isn't great, but their short-term objective is just to get government past the hurdle, not to reform or improve healthcare significantly (as opposed to their long-term objective, where I think they do equate significantly more government control to better care). The rest they can accomplish incrementally until they get the single-payer-system that quite a few of them have admitted, in one fashion or another, to wanting, and quite misguidedly seem to think will be anything but a colossal disaster.

Last edited by Grst : 11-18-2009 at 04:27 PM.

11-18-2009, 04:44 PM

Je(^)plar

Owned By Madmartigan

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible.

I was under the assumption this is the entire foundation of their ideology.

11-18-2009, 05:06 PM

american_myth

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Grst

the single-payer-system that quite a few of them have admitted, in one fashion or another, to wanting

I have otherwise very intelligent friends who fully admit this is what they want. Harumph.

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11-18-2009, 05:08 PM

Guru

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Join Date: Apr 2001

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Grst

their short-term objective is just to get government past the hurdle, not to reform or improve healthcare significantly (as opposed to their long-term objective, where I think they do equate significantly more government control to better care). The rest they can accomplish incrementally

DING!

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11-18-2009, 05:10 PM

nater

hitlerphonic

Join Date: May 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Je(^)plar

I was under the assumption this is the entire foundation of their ideology.

Only domestically. The government of the united states of america is the greatest force for evil in the world when you enter discussions on foreign policy.

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11-18-2009, 05:27 PM

Fututor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Panamon777

(Isn't this demonstrably false?)

Yes. Granted, it's falsity is demonstrated only by century upon century of historical precedent, but that's got to be worth something.

Quote:

One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.

It's control via electoral success. The calculus is actually quite simple: knowing as they do that the people will elect the party of big government to administer a big government, the Democrats are trying to create yet another bureaucratic monstrosity that, once created, will be impossible to abolish. As Ronald Reagan said in his speech to the 1964 Republican National Convention

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So, government programs once launched never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this Earth.

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Originally Posted by Me

Quote:

Originally Posted by american_myth

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