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Old 11-17-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
Tyler Cowen talks about health care reform. He mentions some good talking points but I do not think he gets to the core issues at all. I don't know if that's by choice (he limited his analysis to politically feasible options) or if what he posted is really his best solution.
I just read that a bit ago and was fairly disappointed. He does say these are not his first, or even second best solutions. As he put it, he's starting with the pieces already on the table and rearranging them. So he's basically staying within the current democratic-majority framework and trying to come up with something better, but that wouldn't stray from that framework.

I agree that he doesn't really get into the core issues, which is probably a commentary on the deficiency of the current framework as anything. Some of it even seemed surprisingly naive, such as when he calls for an "all-out attempt" to do this or that thing which hasn't happened in the past, despite knowing they need to be done, because of distorted incentive structures which he does not address. Those are wishful thinking, at best.
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I do not think either current party is able to offer a solution. Both seem intent on passing bills, when I think the best thing for the country is to not pass anything. (Or repeal things.)
There is indeed a definitive bias in government to "do something." To pass new legislation whether it's needed or not, or whether better approaches exist. As you say, it spans both parties.

Last edited by Grst : 11-17-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:04 AM
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An excellent writeup about the loss of freedoms built into the health care bill from a philosophical point of view.

http://minx.cc/?post=294673
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Furthermore, apart from the basic definitional aspect of socialism that requires a loss of freedom in exchange, supposedly, for economic security: Socialism has almost never worked as intended, but rather creates new problems and new poverties and new ways to exploit the system (black markets, for one); socialism therefore always requires even additional laws against once-unobjectionable and perfectly-legal behavior. In other words, not only does socialism require a small buy-in, in the form of loss of freedom, but it is always accompanied by unplanned-for (?) additional losses of freedom to "correct" for all the systematic irrationalities and distortions it creates.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:06 PM
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Irony:
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Senator Charles E. Grassley wrote to 10 top medical schools Tuesday to ask what they are doing about professors who put their names on ghostwritten articles in medical journals — and why that practice was any different from plagiarism by students.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:33 AM
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I am amused that all of us are so exhausted about this issue that we don't even comment any more; we just post links and sigh.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
I am amused that all of us are so exhausted about this issue that we don't even comment any more; we just post links and sigh.
The sad fact is that we never had a chance. Just like those on the left who thought that protesting against an impending war in Iraq would do any good (and I called it back then), our government has a plan, they're sticking to it, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about it. We will have this health care shitbag clusterfuck foisted upon us, come hell or high water.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewboy
The sad fact is that we never had a chance. Just like those on the left who thought that protesting against an impending war in Iraq would do any good (and I called it back then), our government has a plan, they're sticking to it, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about it. We will have this health care shitbag clusterfuck foisted upon us, come hell or high water.


I dunno Brew. Public support still matters and affects legislation. In fact I think it's foolish to think Health Care reform is done deal at this point.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:55 AM
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can anyone confirm the "penalty" for those w/o health care? like, if you're uninsured, you have to pay the government for that privilege? forget where I saw that mentioned.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
can anyone confirm the "penalty" for those w/o health care? like, if you're uninsured, you have to pay the government for that privelege? forget where I saw that mentioned.
That's the mandate part of the individual mandate. According to a letter from the Joint Committee on Taxation (pdf), the Pelosi bill requires that those who do not "maintain acceptable health insurance coverage" are subjected to an additional tax of the lesser of either a) the national average premium for single or family coverage or b) 2.5% of adjusted gross income beyond the threshold for which filing is required.

Both civil and criminal sanctions for not paying are possible (and are not mutually exclusive). The civil penalties include various fines, as either a percentage of the underpayment or fees up to $5,000 dollars, depending on what they can prove regarding intent.

Criminal penalties range up to 5 years in jail and $250,000 in fines.

But remember, this generous government expansion of "rights" is not at all a threat to your liberty. Anyone who says otherwise is a nutjob, racist teabagger.

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Old 11-18-2009, 02:48 PM
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this is all just a huge clusterfuck waiting to happen. Yes, make healthcare entirely socialist in a market that is otherwise almost entirely capitalist (notice how your prescription drugs have spiked in price recently?). While you're at it, keep American med school seats and resident slots ridiculously scarce but continue to bitch when 50+% of your physicians are foreign trained. You could easily QUADRUPLE the numbers of both slots and you wouldn't make a DENT in the quality or competancy of physicians. Oh and hey, since you politicos are busy cocksucking your lawyer fratbuddies don't do a fucking thing about tort reform. It totally doesn't effect how healthcare is performed when the average surgeon is paying 150k a year in malpractice insurance (that's about 3 months of their work year, btw). Oh and iirc general surgeons are actually considered MIDRANGE for insurance premiums. God forbid you're an OBGYN or neurosurgeon.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grst
But remember, this generous government expansion of "rights" is not at all a threat to your liberty. Anyone who says otherwise is a nutjob, racist teabagger.
I do not understand the Democrats' motivation. What does this legislation accomplish? It seems to not reform health care, it raises (effective) taxes, and increases debt. One could argue that their intentions are good, and this bill is just what happens to all bills as they get watered down in committee. One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible. (Isn't this demonstrably false?) One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon777
One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible. (Isn't this demonstrably false?) One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.

Some combination of the above, I'd go with. I'm sure privately many would admit this bill isn't great, but their short-term objective is just to get government past the hurdle, not to reform or improve healthcare significantly (as opposed to their long-term objective, where I think they do equate significantly more government control to better care). The rest they can accomplish incrementally until they get the single-payer-system that quite a few of them have admitted, in one fashion or another, to wanting, and quite misguidedly seem to think will be anything but a colossal disaster.

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Old 11-18-2009, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Panamon777
One could also argue that the Democrats actually believe that government is the greatest force for good in the world and that government should run as many industries as possible.
I was under the assumption this is the entire foundation of their ideology.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Grst
the single-payer-system that quite a few of them have admitted, in one fashion or another, to wanting
I have otherwise very intelligent friends who fully admit this is what they want. Harumph.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Grst
their short-term objective is just to get government past the hurdle, not to reform or improve healthcare significantly (as opposed to their long-term objective, where I think they do equate significantly more government control to better care). The rest they can accomplish incrementally

DING!
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:10 PM
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I was under the assumption this is the entire foundation of their ideology.
Only domestically. The government of the united states of america is the greatest force for evil in the world when you enter discussions on foreign policy.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Panamon777
(Isn't this demonstrably false?)
Yes. Granted, it's falsity is demonstrated only by century upon century of historical precedent, but that's got to be worth something.
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One could also argue that they're just out to get control, but they're taking control of an empire that they're slowly destroying.
It's control via electoral success. The calculus is actually quite simple: knowing as they do that the people will elect the party of big government to administer a big government, the Democrats are trying to create yet another bureaucratic monstrosity that, once created, will be impossible to abolish. As Ronald Reagan said in his speech to the 1964 Republican National Convention
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No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So, government programs once launched never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this Earth.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:09 PM
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I think Harry Reid might be overselling this just a little bit...
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Originally Posted by Dingy Harry
Today we vote whether to even discuss one of the greatest issues of our generation - indeed, one of the greatest issues this body has ever face: whether this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and death, which can be prevented by decent health care for all.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:50 PM
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:11 PM
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I dunno Brew. Public support still matters and affects legislation. In fact I think it's foolish to think Health Care reform is done deal at this point.
Done deal. Mark my words. Maybe not tomorrow, but certainly before mid-term elections. There's a backlash coming, and the Democrats are going to do everything possible to pass their agenda before they lose the majority.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:16 PM
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:01 PM
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I think Harry Reid might be overselling this just a little bit...
Its nice that he wants to make it so we can all "live free from the fear of illness and death", but I myself would actually rather just live free, period.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Grst
I think Harry Reid might be overselling this just a little bit...

From the guy who said the "Democrats declared war on America." How can you even call out exaggeration with any semblance of honesty? (did I just answer my own question?)
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Originally Posted by Brewboy

Done deal. Mark my words. Maybe not tomorrow, but certainly before mid-term elections. There's a backlash coming, and the Democrats are going to do everything possible to pass their agenda before they lose the majority.

I dunno man...they need everything they have to pull this off, and I am not sure they can do it.
Truthfully I am not so bold to call it one way or another, as you have. (I am leaning toward nay) If you're right though I will definitely give you your props.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Guru
From the guy who said the "Democrats declared war on America." How can you even call out exaggeration with any semblance of honesty? (did I just answer my own question?)
From a guy who just banned someone for no reason other than he never can defeat him in an argument, how can you ever whine about a "passive aggressive pussy" again? (did I just answer my own question?)

Really, what kind of moron can't tell the difference between someone on a fucking internet forum being deliberately hyperbolic and a politician promising on the floor of the Senate that because of a vote for his bill, no one will fear illness or death again. Does one have to be born that obtuse, or must you practice at it?

You are the most worthless piece of shit on these forums. How's that for exaggeration? It's not

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Old 11-22-2009, 12:49 PM
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How's that for exaggeration?

Top notch. You had it in every single part of your post. I'm impressed.
When do you start running for office?
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:00 PM
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Guru, can I have some of your money to pay for health insurance (I already have it, but I could have better) that way i can continue to spend my money on beer and motorcycles.

Thanks.
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Old 11-22-2009, 05:41 PM
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Guru, can I have some of your money to pay for health insurance (I already have it, but I could have better) that way i can continue to spend my money on beer and motorcycles.

Thanks.


Will you share your beer with me?
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:46 PM
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whether this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and death
That is a bit of a stretch.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:55 PM
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Will you share your beer with me?
Why would he do that? He's underprivileged.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:25 PM
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I wonder if Harry knew after uttering that statement that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He had to have known, right? I mean, sure, this is Harry Reid we're talking about here, and, sure, he's a notorious fuckbrain, but I'm pretty sure even a retarded monkey would've made some strange sounds indicating his disapproval with such a stupid comment, so Harry just had to have known.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:23 AM
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Will you share your beer with me?

I'll piss in your mouth; it's just reprocessed beer, imo.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:43 AM
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I'll piss in your mouth; it's just reprocessed beer, imo.
You're trying too hard.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:34 AM
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You're trying too hard.

really?

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:37 AM
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really?

That didn't take much effort at all.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:38 AM
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Will you share your beer with me?

I suppose, but I don't drink zima, so you may be disappointed.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:05 AM
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really?

I figured he was just upset I didn't offer to piss in his mouth first.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:30 AM
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The other possible explanation I see is that health insurance competition won't be effective so long as we treat insurance as medical prepayment, instead of actual catastrophic insurance. People need to be purchasing most care directly for competition to drive down costs. This argument tends to suggest HSA's as superior to exchanges.
The problem with medical insurance only covering catastrophic occurances rather than maintenance is that it will cause people to avoid health care maintenance and hence you'll see a dramatic rise in medical catastrophes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure to be sure. If insurance isn't going to cover maintenance, then they damn well better put in incentives to receive maintenance.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:17 PM
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The problem with medical insurance only covering catastrophic occurances rather than maintenance is that it will cause people to avoid health care maintenance and hence you'll see a dramatic rise in medical catastrophes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure to be sure. If insurance isn't going to cover maintenance, then they damn well better put in incentives to receive maintenance.

I think it's safe to assume such incentives will be there when necessary, but before getting to that I want to address another point. I don't think the benefits of prevention are as clear as you make it seem. I seem to recall, though don't have the figures in front of me, that total preventative care purchased today costs more than it saves in future spending (though perhaps this statement will require greater qualification when I come across the data again). The reason is that right now such care is often purchased frivolously, to the point where much of it is unnecessary and provides no real benefit, because patients are divorced entirely from the costs.

While obviously not all catastrophes are of the kind that can be prevented, I'll grant that because many can be, it's possible that people might cut back on consumption of preventative care to the point that they make the need for such care more likely and more costly than what is saved. But given how much extraneous care is purchased today, I think it more likely that the market will find the better equilibrium than we see at present. (There are some factors here that I'm not addressing, such as the information problem in health care, but I think you'd see gains there as well if consumer-driven care was adopted.)

Be all that as it may, and getting back to the main point, of course the insurers will use such incentives where evidence suggests it can reduce risk. In fact, they are the only mechanism that really exists to take into account long-term cost considerations, so I see no reason why there need be any worry about this from a policy point of view. Insurance, by its very nature, takes this into account already.

The purpose of insurance is to cover risk. If someone is making their risk greater by not receiving proper care, insurers will charge them more. So long as there aren't any laws preventing price discrimination between people who engage in risky behavior and people who take better care of themselves, then the problem is not really a problem in fact. Don't want to get a check-up? Like smoking 2 packs a day? Expect to pay a higher premium.

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:51 PM
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Grst, do you know if anyone has looked at the costs and benefits of exercising? I ask only because the costs and benefits to society of smoking have been found to be somewhat counter-intuitive. Everyone knows that exercising regularly is "good for your health," but there is obviously an expense as regards 1) musculo-skeletal injuries incurred while exercising and 2) lifelong costs incurred by a longer-living, healthier (in terms of BMI, aerobic condition, muscle strength, etc.) population.

My anecdotal experience is that recreational competitive athletes (define as > 10 hrs/week activity) tend to do pretty well racking up medical bills, whether it's MRIs, PT, sports medicine docs, etc. It certainly outweighs the medical costs that a sedentary, not-already-ill person would incur.

I expect one could solve for the financially optimal fitness of the population, if you let medical expenses track as a function of hours spent exercising per week.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:22 PM
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Grst, do you know if anyone has looked at the costs and benefits of exercising?

I'm a bit surprised to realize that I haven't seen anything addressing this subject (which is obviously not to say that there's nothing out there on it).

For those that might not know what Pan is referring to, some research has shown (though not without controversy) that smoking actually saves money by reducing life expectancy. This is possible by taking into account things like the vast increase in cost of care as people get older and welfare programs like social security which pays more the longer someone lives past retirement.

Back to exercise, I don't find anything to fault in your speculation. If I had to guess I would suppose that there is cost savings up to a certain threshold (basic exercise like walking a mile a day, just as a possible example), but negative returns beyond that, for the reasons you stated. Someone who participates in competitive athletics is certainly going to have a greater injury risk than someone of similar physical condition who does not.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:09 PM
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Someone who participates in competitive athletics is certainly going to have a greater injury risk than someone of similar physical condition who does not.
Yep... I get my MRI results tomorrow.
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